Legislature(1999 - 2000)

03/07/2000 10:10 AM House O&G

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
             HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON OIL AND GAS                                                                             
                          March 7, 2000                                                                                         
                           10:10 a.m.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
PRESENTATIONS: FOOTHILLS PIPE LINES                                                                                             
               ALASKA UNDERGROUND TANK OWNERS & OPERATORS ASSOC.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 00-18, SIDES A AND B                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CALL TO ORDER                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   JIM  WHITAKER   reconvened   the  House   Special                                                              
Committee on Oil and Gas meeting at 10:10 a.m.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
[Note: Please refer to Tape 00-17  for the separate tape recording                                                              
and corresponding minutes that were  created for the meeting on HB
414, which was held on the same day at 10:01 a.m.]                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
PRESENT                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Members   present  at   the  reconvening   were:   Representatives                                                              
Whitaker, Dyson, Green, Harris, Porter, Kemplen and Smalley.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SUMMARY OF INFORMATION                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN WHITAKER  announced that the presentation  was related to                                                              
"what  should  be  the  legislature's   highest  priority,  taking                                                              
Alaska's  North Slope  gas to  market."   He  then introduced  the                                                              
presenters from Foothills Pipe Lines,  Ltd.: Bob Pierce, Chairman;                                                              
John  Ellwood, Vice  President of  Engineering,  and Harry  Hobbs,                                                              
Vice  President of  Transportation.   Mr.  Pierce then  introduced                                                              
Curtis Moffatt of the Van Ness Feldman firm of Washington.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  PIERCE  stated  that  he had  participated  in  the  original                                                              
hearings  on  this  gas  line project  before  the  Federal  Trade                                                              
Commission and  the National Energy Board, when  then-Secretary of                                                              
Energy   Jim  Schlessinger   and  the   Canadian  Prime   Minister                                                              
negotiated  the deal  that was  then ratified  by legislation  and                                                              
executive orders, and is still in effect.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. PIERCE  explained that  Foothills is the  chair of  the Alaska                                                              
partnership.  It  has  two active  members,  Foothills  and  Trans                                                              
Canada Pipelines,  and they  think the time  is right  to complete                                                              
the Alaska Highway Pipeline.  He  stated that the pipeline is cost                                                              
effective, environmentally sound and politically palatable.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. PIERCE described  the three original proposals  to move Alaska                                                              
gas.   The "El  Paso" project  would pipeline  gas to a  liquefied                                                              
natural  gas  (LNG)  facility  at  Valdez  and  then  ship  it  to                                                              
California.   The "Arctic  Gas" project  would pipeline  it across                                                              
the North Slope to the Mackenzie  Valley and through Canada to the                                                              
United  States.    The third  project,  Foothills,  calls  for  an                                                              
overland  pipeline along  the Dalton and  Alaskan Highway  through                                                              
Alaska and Canada to the Lower 48.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. PIERCE  said that  the U.S.  and Canada  had agreed  that, all                                                              
things considered,  the Alaska Highway route was  the best option.                                                              
Certificates were issued, international  agreements were signed by                                                              
the  President of  the  U.S. and  the  Prime Minister  of  Canada,                                                              
agreements  were ratified  by  Congress and  by  Parliament.   The                                                              
decisions,  the  agreement  and   the  legislation  selecting  the                                                              
highway route  have the force and  effect of a treaty  between the                                                              
two countries.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. PIERCE discussed  the latest proposal to take  Alaskan gas via                                                              
the Mackenzie valley  to join the Canadian pipeline  route, saying                                                              
the only difference  between this one and the  earlier proposal is                                                              
that the pipeline will be laid under  the ocean ice.  He predicted                                                              
that  this proposal  will fail  for  the same  reasons as  before:                                                              
economics, environment and politics.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. PIERCE  stated that  the renewed  interest  in a gas  pipeline                                                              
project  is  based upon  rising  U.S.  demand and  escalating  gas                                                              
prices, driven  primarily by the  demand for gas-fired  electrical                                                              
generation.  Most  analysts predict a 30 TCF U.S.  market and a $3                                                              
mcf price by the second half of this decade.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  PIERCE  said that  recently,  the  chairman of  the  National                                                              
Energy Board  of Canada  warned of  a 2 bcf  per day shortfall  in                                                              
Canada  by 2001.    He  pointed out  that  Alaska is  the  largest                                                              
unconnected  gas  reserve  in  North  America  and  described  how                                                              
Alberta solved its stranded gas problem.    Capital investments in                                                              
the petrochemical  industry there  are now approaching  $7 billion                                                              
(Canadian), with more than 400 construction  jobs created for each                                                              
$1 billion investment.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. PIERCE  said he  believes that Chicago  gas prices  will allow                                                              
for  the profitable  movement  of  Alaska gas.    He believes  the                                                              
Alaska Highway  project is the best  option.  Mr. Pierce  said the                                                              
projected capital cost  to build the 1,700 mile  pipeline from the                                                              
North  Slope to  the  Canadian grid  is  approximately $6  billion                                                              
(U.S.).   It would be a  high-pressure pipeline, with  a beginning                                                              
capacity between  2.5 and  3 bcf per  day.  Because  Foothills has                                                              
many  of the key  approvals  in hand,  its  pipeline  could  be in                                                              
operation as early as 2006.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. PIERCE,  answering why the cost  is so much lower now  than in                                                              
previous  estimates, stated  that a sizeable  portion has  already                                                              
been pre-built.   Also, Foothills is using smaller  diameter pipe,                                                              
and   new  welding   techniques  increase   productivity  in   the                                                              
construction phase.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  PIERCE described  throughput volumes,  discussing market  and                                                              
transportation  tolls.  He  went on to  say that the  Alaska North                                                              
Slope  LNG  project and  the  Alaska  Highway project  could  work                                                              
together.    He  concluded  by  comparing  the  Foothills  project                                                              
favorably  with the  proposal to  go under the  ocean ice,  citing                                                              
costs, environmental  concerns and the political factor.   And, he                                                              
said,  the Alaska  pipeline  project would  produce  more jobs  in                                                              
Alaska than a project that ran predominantly through Canada.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JOHN  ELLWOOD  answered  a  question  from  Representative  Green,                                                              
describing plans  to move gas liquids  as well as gas  through the                                                              
stream.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
HARRY HOBBS  answered a question  from Representative  Dyson about                                                              
the environmental objection to a  pipeline under the Beaufort Sea,                                                              
stating that  he believes  there would be  the same objections  in                                                              
Canada.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. PIERCE  added that  one would  have to  start from scratch  to                                                              
take  a  gas  line through  the  Mackenzie  Delta,  and  that  the                                                              
Foothills project has a distinct advantage in its permits.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KEMPLEN asked  what needs  to happen  in order  to                                                              
meet Foothills' target date of 2006  for the pipeline.  Mr. Pierce                                                              
stated it  would require an agreement  between the people  who own                                                              
the  gas and  the  pipeline company,  "and  once  you've got  that                                                              
agreement, then  you can proceed to  the other things."   He added                                                              
that  those discussions  are  now  in progress.    In response  to                                                              
Representative   Kemplen's  follow-up   question  as  to   whether                                                              
Foothills would be willing to commit  to a project large enough to                                                              
handle LNG  as well, Mr. Pierce  said one always builds  in excess                                                              
capacity.  He added that people do  not drill for gas unless there                                                              
is a  pipeline to  take it  to market,  and that  Alaska might  be                                                              
surprised  to  discover how  much  gas  it  really has  if  people                                                              
started looking for it.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SMALLEY ASKED about  the opportunity  for tax-free                                                              
revenue bonding  and tax  free revenues.   Mr. Pierce  stated that                                                              
they have  no tax free revenue  bonding, that Canada is  quite the                                                              
opposite.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if $3  netback at the wellhead would be                                                              
enough.  Mr. Pierce said they think it would be.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ELLWOOD described  the demand  and  supply for  the Lower  48                                                              
market, and said Alaskan gas will  be required to meet the demand.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN  WHITAKER   commented  that   the  30  tcf  might   be  a                                                              
conservative  number due to  a restricted  supply, and  Mr. Pierce                                                              
agreed.  In answer to a subsequent  question by Chairman Whitaker,                                                              
Mr. Hobbs  stated that  to his knowledge  the leaseholders  in the                                                              
Mackenzie  Delta  are,  Imperial Oil(Exxon),  Shell  Canada,  Gulf                                                              
Canada, Petro Canada and Anderson Exploration.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN WHITAKER observed that the  market is growing, the supply                                                              
is restricted, and a huge supply  exists in Alaska.  He asked what                                                              
it will take to "break that log jam."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HOBBS  said  Foothills  thinks  it is  a  matter  of  getting                                                              
together  the  producers, the  shippers  and  the players  in  the                                                              
marketplace.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. PIERCE  stated that  historically,  it is  the buyer that  one                                                              
needs to  "get on the hook,"  but utility companies (in  the U.S.)                                                              
have  begun to  enter  into  purchase agreements  themselves,  and                                                              
producers are now in a position to  deal with the buyers directly.                                                              
To REPRESENTATIVE  DYSON'S question regarding the  effect of North                                                              
American  National  security  concerns on  supply  decisions,  Mr.                                                              
Pierce commented  that Jim Schlessinger had testified  before U.S.                                                              
Senator Frank  Murkowski's committee that  the high cost  of crude                                                              
oil was to be blamed on the administration,  and that the time has                                                              
come  to  move gas  from  Alaska  down the  highway  project  that                                                              
Congress had approved.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN WHITAKER announced a brief  at-ease, while the next group                                                              
came forward to  give a presentation on the Storage  Tank Board of                                                              
Assistance.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN  WHITAKER  reconvened  the  meeting  at  11:09  a.m.  and                                                              
introduced  Mr.  John  Barnett  of   the  Storage  Tank  Board  of                                                              
Assistance,  stating  that  the committee  hoped  to  gain  enough                                                              
information to  waive a bill that  would extend the sunset  of the                                                              
Board of Assistance, should one be  introduced and referred to the                                                              
committee.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
JOHN BARNETT described  the history, purpose and  authority of the                                                              
Storage Tank Board  of Assistance.  It was  originally established                                                              
as an appeals board and to provide  oversight to the Department of                                                              
Environmental   Conservation  (DEC)   regulations  pertaining   to                                                              
storage tanks.   The storage tank fund, which  provided grants and                                                              
loans  to  owners   of  tanks  that  faced  cleanup   issues,  was                                                              
established at  the same time as  the board.  The idea  behind the                                                              
grant and  loan fund was  that if the  state did not  provide some                                                              
type of program  to help those businesses, they would  not be able                                                              
to pay for  the cleanup, and the  state would be left  holding the                                                              
bag.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
The program operated fairly successfully  for nine years, but last                                                              
year,  due to  budget  constraints, Senate  Bill  128 changed  the                                                              
grant program to a loan program and  reduced the amounts available                                                              
to tank  owners.   The Board  has acted  as an  appeals board  for                                                              
disputes  over what  qualified for  the program  and has  reviewed                                                              
regulations put forth by DEC with regard to storage tanks.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
There are now  tank owners waiting for loans, and  the Board feels                                                              
there are  going to  be disputes over  the qualifications.  If the                                                              
board  is  dissolved  on  June 30,  there  will  still  be  grants                                                              
available  and unfinished  loan applications.   Mr. Barnett  would                                                              
like to keep the  board in place for at least  three more years to                                                              
keep tank-related disputes out of the court system.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Another concern  of the Tank  Owners and Operators  Association is                                                              
that there are currently over 2,000  sites waiting to be certified                                                              
as "clean"  by DEC, and there is  no recourse for the  owners.  He                                                              
suggested that the board could help with that.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN  WHITAKER asked  Mr.  Barnett to  clarify  points in  his                                                              
testimony about the  number of sites awaiting  "no further action"                                                              
letters and the ability of the board to act as a mediator.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. BARNETT, in response to a question  from Representative Green,                                                              
said that  to issue a "no  further action" letter,  the department                                                              
has to be  satisfied that all  contamination at the site  has been                                                              
identified and a  means is in place to monitor and  assure that no                                                              
further  contamination  is  taking   place  or  that  all  of  the                                                              
contamination has been  removed.  Because the board  can only deal                                                              
with sites  that have participated  in the loan program,  it would                                                              
be able to mediate only about 200  of the 2,000 outstanding claims                                                              
unless the board's  authority were expanded.  He  also pointed out                                                              
that many  of the 2,000 sites  had not been identified  during the                                                              
window of  opportunity for them to  qualify for the  loan program,                                                              
thereby leaving them outside the authority of the board.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
JIM HAYDEN, Manager, Underground  Storage Tank Program, Department                                                              
of   Environmental   Conservation,   answered  a   question   from                                                              
Representative Green.   He stated that the monies  repaid from the                                                              
loan program will  come back into the loan fund  account and could                                                              
be loaned  out again.   He also pointed  out that other  money for                                                              
the  loan fund  comes  from registration  fees  paid  by the  tank                                                              
owners.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Following a  request by Representative  Porter, John  Barnett went                                                              
through  the draft  legislation  that will  be  introduced by  the                                                              
Resources  Committee to  extend the  sunset date  of the board  as                                                              
well as  its authority to  act as mediator  and to  review cleanup                                                              
decisions and plans.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
The committee took no action.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN WHITAKER adjourned the meeting at 11:41 a.m.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
NOTE:   The meeting  was recorded and  handwritten log  notes were                                                              
taken.   A copy of the  tape(s) and log  notes may be  obtained by                                                              
contacting the House Records Office  at 129 6th Street, Suite 229,                                                              
Juneau, Alaska  99801-2197, (907)  465-2214, and after adjournment                                                              
of  the   second  session   of  the   Twenty-first  Alaska   State                                                              
Legislature  this information  may be obtained  by contacting  the                                                              
Legislative Reference Library at  129 6th Street, Suite 102, (907)                                                              
465-3808.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                

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